Paperlegends

[einahpets]

So if any of you don't know, paperlegends had their announcement post today!  Yay! 
I've met the best people through this event, seriously. 

Anyway I was looking through the schedule and I noticed artists now have to submit drafts.
This is actually pretty cool, cause it makes artists more involved. 
But I think there's probably more that would make it a little more involved/better for the artists.

Question for my writer friends and artists too!! --
As it's done now, drafts aren't due until after artist/author matchups happen. 
Before matchups, the 15K word counts are taken in faith.  I can't tell you how many of my artist friends got burned because the author didn't have the suggested amount, and ended up dropping out or the artists were not able to make art to the fullest of their abilities since time is shorter for artists.
I was wondering if submitting a minimum 15K rough draft before match-ups is something you think would benefit your Big Bang experience?
As an artist, I see it as more of a guarantee that you're serious about finishing and I have more confidence going into the anon matchups.  ALSO!  I have so much more material to work with and create beautiful art from.  And please tell me of a writer who doesn't want to see beautiful art?

Question for my artist friends --
How would you feel to have betas required for artists too? 
There are so many talented artists in fandom who would be more than happy to take a look at your in-progress work.
In the past year I started sharing my IP work with fellow Merlin artists and it makes a world of difference. 
Be it for anatomy, composition, perspective issues, coloring, the atmosphere in the piece, how to do a certain technique, etc. 
Having an online critique makes such a difference, and it created such a supportive community. 
It's like an art class, but for free, and on your time!!
Would you guys be interested/supportive of this?

I've already talked to a few friends, but I wanted to see if there were similar/different thoughts from my flist/the Merlin community.

Feel free to pass this along!

Comments

[ella-bane.livejournal.com]

I was wondering if submitting a rough draft before match-ups is something you think would benefit your Big Bang experience?

I really do. More time for the artist means more art for the story!

This is a great post. Your concerns make absolute sense.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much!
And you're totally in agreement with what the writers I asked said.

I actually left a comment on today's paperlegends post (probably jumping the gun, but I want to get some dialog going) but I think starting a discussion and implementing these changes would really benefit.

I really appreciate you linking this.

[jennybliss.livejournal.com]

Hi, here via ella_bane

I am an artist and I really like the idea of submitting the rough draft before the match-up. It will also give me a better idea where the story is going to go and what would work for the story. Sometimes when I only have 5 pages of the fic and the summery I feel like my art is a stab in the dark.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for stopping by!

I've been very fortunate to match up with authors who have a lot of their story written and planned, but I know that it's not always the case. Hopefully by getting this conversation started we can make a change for this year's BB.

[giselleslash.livejournal.com]

Here via Ella. :)

I would DEFINITELY be behind turning in rough drafts before writer/artist match-ups. In my opinion it'd take the pressure off knowing I at least had a rough draft finished and that I wouldn't leave my artist in the dust by having to drop out. I don't care if I have to drop out on my own, but having another creator/artist depending on me and my word that I'll finish is pretty stressful. I think it's only fair to the artists as well that they know their writer has a rough draft done. You can say you'll finish all you want but the reality is you don't actually know that you will. Having a rough draft will at least give the writer and the artist something tangible to work with that is much more likely to result in a final (finished) project.

As a writer I have absolutely no objections to having to turn in a rough draft before match-ups.

[waltzing-mice.livejournal.com]

Of course you would!

You were an artist's dream-come-true.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you for coming by!
And I appreciate the support, I'm hoping this is a change we can get implemented into this year's BB.

[cardigankate.livejournal.com]

So... when you say submit the rough draft ahead of time, is that to help the artists choose their favorites? Or just to ensure that a writer actually has 15k words?

I don't have any problem turning in a rough draft, because I think it's good to be held accountable. But I do usually share my draft via google docs with my artist the minute I know who it is. If the artists aren't going to be able to see the drafts ahead of time, I'm not sure how it makes a difference.

I do actually think it would be nice that we have to submit our drafts, though. Because I don't want those same artists (or any others) to have those problems with writers like they did last round.

Am I even making sense anymore?

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

When I say 'submit a draft ahead a time,' I mean submit a draft confirming they have 15K before they can submit an anon summery for match-ups. I would imagine the one confirming the word count is a mod so everything says anonymous.
As it's set up now 15K is only recommended, not required. And that's where problems arise. As an artist I would feel more confidant going in knowing my writer has words.

You're making perfect sense, and I'm glad you asked what I meant!

[corilannam.livejournal.com]

I like the idea in theory, but for me it kind of depends on the specifics. Do you mean that writers have to have a complete rough draft by May 20th? Or that we have to give our artists the 15-20K that we're supposed to have by that point (which I think is already required)? Or that the match-ups should happen later?

I definitely understand why artists would want the full rough draft in hand before committing to a writer, and I would totally support that if the schedule could be adjusted to give both the writers and artists the full amount of time. But there's no way I'll have the whole thing done by May 20th, so if that were the case, I would have to decline an artist match-up altogether.

[gwyntastic.livejournal.com]

Just butting in here. It isn't required to have 15-20k before artist sign ups it's only encouraged. Which means an artist could get a 5k story in their inbox.

The really weird thing is all other bigbangs ask for rough drafts before artist matching. With just about the same time frame. Since it's only a super rough draft it doesn't have to be prefect it could have huge holes in it. It's just gotta hit the word count.

[yue_ix]

As an artist, I love betas and cheerleaders, and I love betaing and cheerleading artists. (I'm lumping both things here because the same people have often played either one or both in the past and sometimes the help and support they gave me were very similar.) I'm pretty much always in favour of betas being offered and required for artists for big things.

It's been particularly useful for me for big pieces that have been done over the span of weeks, when under a heavy deadline or when drawing inspiration from an external source. There's often last minute rushes and disconnection from all parts of influences. It distracts me and makes me miss out on very obvious mistakes, or only later realise I tried to put too much into a single frame. It can also plain burn me out and make me want to give up. Betas and cheerleaders are extremely reassuring. It's an external person looking at our work before we release it to a large public, someone to ask questions to, to hold hands with, to discuss and work out particular issues with our work. My works are much better when I can get a beta on it, and for challenges and exchanges I love to aim for the best quality of work I can make. Knowing betas are required pushes me to try newer things because I have a fail safe to look at the piece after and let me know if I'm off-track with it.

[yue_ix]

Btw, it wasn't one of the questions for artists, but I'm also in favour of a pre-match-up draft due. Like you I've seen artists who got matched up with writers that didn't have much words written yet, and it made the artists unable to start on any work since there wasn't enough source for them available. To my knowledge they all made it in time for the deadline anyway but they were forced into a much shorter timespan to do their art than they were supposed to have and often ended with lessened enthusiasm for their own final pieces.

[dk323.livejournal.com]

I think requiring 15K before the match-ups are done is a good idea. It's always nice to have a guarantee that someone has reached their goal, which allows the other person to do better at their job. I'm all for artists getting that guarantee and having more time to work on their piece(s) since they'll be able to get a completed story on schedule.

I haven't participated specifically in paperlegends yet as you know, and I wish I were one of those people who wrote faster...it can be a tricky thing, but I think I've done better these last few months at keeping to the deadlines. As long as writer's block doesn't happen, I should be fine.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

I think it would really benefit writers who would love to work with an artist. Because they have to structure themselves more to meet the word count requirement.

The cool thing about Merlin BB is they allow for pinch artists for Cat 2 writers (writers who didn't ask for artists at the initial match-up but still were going to finish). So even if they don't qualify for the first round there's still a chance to get art.

[viennajones.livejournal.com]

Hi there :)

I wouldn't be opposed to the beta requirement for artists! I have a few artist friends who were incredibly helpful last year, so yeah, I'd support that :)

As for the rough draft before match-ups, I'd like that - not that I've made unpleasant experiences before (I kinda jumped in as an artist last year), but still.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

It's always fun to have a group of artists to squee with, right? And they tend to be very helpful at the same time!

I think having a draft requirement would ensure artists are able to start working right away! I've been very lucky each year I have done PL that I had plenty of material to work with, but as I said above I've also talked to many artists who haven't been as lucky and lose valuable working time because of it.

[itzcoatl.livejournal.com]

I think those are all excellent ideas. I've had absolutely smashing authors in Big Bang 2010 and 2011, with brilliant stories going, but through absolutely no fault of their own, one of them didn't finish in 2010, (though luckily I was illustrating more than one story that year), and my author in 2011 didn't finish.

At the moment I'm dithering over whether to do 2012, I was thinking I absolutely, definitely wouldn't...but now that I've seen the main post go up...I'm finding myself getting interested despite myself.

I think the 15K rough drafts are an excellent idea. And as an artist you know you've got something to get going on from the day you're matched up.

I sometimes think it would be nice to have a final date for the stories, where they have to be finished and submitted. And then the final date for the artwork is a month after that. And then they are both posted. Often a story is leading up to a great climax that would be absolutely super to illustrate...but the artist never sees it in time to do anything with it, and is kinda stuck illustrating early/middle scenes in the story.

(At the moment the authors have several months to work in before the artists can get involved. Maybe the artists could have a month at the end to work after the writers have finished.)

The idea of an art beta is a great one. I'd love to have someone I got on well with looking at my WIP and offering advice.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the time issue for artists working is always a tough one. I totally think having a draft would ensure artists making the most of their time which is always a plus.

I love your idea about giving artists an extra month after the writer finishes to make art for end scenes. Sometimes I feel like my art only accompanies the beginning and middle of the story instead of the whole thing. Though I don't know if that would be possible since PL likes to launch before the new series begins. However, I can see a change like this taking place after Merlin stops airing (which would be very sad because I live for the boys D:).

[eyesofapanda.livejournal.com]

I'm not participating (can't do big bangs, oh well, not do I even have the time!), but good luck, bb! I await your offer eagerly! :D

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

XD
I love you.

[venivincere]

One thing that I found helpful and really motivating was finding my artist ahead of time, actually. During the story planning process we bounced ideas off each other and I really think it worked so well for the synergy of the art and story. When I first starting thinking of my story, one of my first thoughts was "OMG I have to ask Itz if she'd be willing to illustrate this," because as I was thinking of the story in my head, I was seeing pictures of it in her style. I didn't know her from Adam, hadn't ever talked to her, but I got up the guts and PMed her out of the blue and just asked. It's not how it's done, but I just couldn't see anyone's style but hers. She accepted, and was not only instrumental in getting my ideas to gel but was also an AMAZING resource for the celtic pagan holidays and the significance of the Oak King, both of which are central themes to Light of Arthur.

In short, if I had an option, I'd ask that artists and writers be matched at the very beginning so they can work through ideas together and have that synergy, too.

[cruentum.livejournal.com]

I'd actually agree (even though I know it's not practical given the drop-out rate) but what's made me a bit sad is always the difference in results between artists and writers who you knew went into this together and those who dashed something out last minute and couldn't care less. I freely admit a bit of jealousy on my part towards people who go in pre-matched and essentially circumvent the idea, somewhat, of the challenge and the set-up of the challenge. They produce great results but I'm all for an improvement in rules/guidelines committing artists and authors more towards one another.

[scribblemoose]

Here via Ella-bane, hello!

As a writer I would welcome the extra discipline that being required to have 15k verified words before being allowed to request an artist would impose. I'd already made a pact with myself that I wouldn't put myself forward to that stage unless I have a pretty complete (if very rough!) draft by then - it's fairer on writers and artists and far less stressful!

The only potential problem I can imagine is that it might not be possible for the mod to verify the drafts at that time - I don't know if this is the case but it's a lot of work and essentially they'd end up having to do it twice. If this is the case perhaps a screen-shot word count would be a useful compromise?

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you for stopping by!

Yeah, I think having the draft would also be really helpful for writers too, because it would keep them on track!

Yes, I can see how it would be difficult to verify the drafts. But I'm assuming if it's a word doc you can just 'select all' check the word count and just double check it's not paragraphs of the same word over and over. <-- honestly I don't know of anyone who would want to do that just to get an artist.

[zephre.livejournal.com]

aaargh, my first comment got eaten by my browser, so I will try to reconstruct the main points:

Rough drafts - excellent idea, really like it, would make it much less stressful to be an artist, and possibly allow real work to begin sooner.

Betas for artists - I like this idea, would appreciate developing a community of Merlin-oriented folks willing to crit art. Perhaps could grow out of an artists' support comm?

I also really like itzcoatl's idea about giving artists a month after the writers turn in their final stories, to refine or elaborate on their work, and to recover from any "oops, what I drafted became a deleted scene" problems.
I think that time could really transform the sort of thing I, at least, produce, and would probably benefit all the artists.

Thanks for asking the great questions!

[itzcoatl.livejournal.com]

The other thing, as an artist, I find. Is that, if you're lucky, you may be able to see a basic plan for the whole story, and have a rough idea of what's going to go on in a scene before it's written.

But until it's actually written, you don't know what they're wearing, what time of day it is, what room/sort of scenery they're in, what emotion is really going on between them in that scene... (And often the author won't know this either, since they are conditional on other things which happen in the writing during the lead-up to that scene).

I think it would be lovely to have some time after the writing is completely finished to do some extra pictures, or just some tweaking to pictures you've already started...just to make it tie in really well with the written story.

I LOVE, (love, love), your idea of a support-com just for the artists. It would be nice to have a community just for the artists on something like this. So artists could go there and post the works in progress and get comments/con-crit, and a bit of positive feedback just to keep each other going and the enthusiasm up.

[altocello.livejournal.com]

I am late to the party, but here are my thoughts.

I totally agree with the idea of a beta requirement for artists. And, though I don't see it happening this year, I really like itzcoatl's idea of letting the artist have a month after the final story is due to work on art for the WHOLE story. An outline doesn't give me enough information to create good, detailed illustrations, and I would really love to get to illustrate the back half of a Paperlegends fic someday!

I could say a lot more, but probably should leave it at that. :D I support you, and thanks for making this post!

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Never too late! All comments are appreciated and helpful!

[amphigoury.livejournal.com]

I hear that...

My 2011 random writer match-up was WAY short of the 15k honour system word count when we were matched.... she dropped out.

So I'm all for having a rough draft submitted before hand for the random matching

[yue_ix]

That's too bad. *hugs* I hope that if you participate again you'll get to enjoy it more! It's awesome to exchange with you; I'd love to see you in chats through the process.

[waltzing-mice.livejournal.com]

Like itzcoatl, I'm on the fence about doing the BB. I don't work well rushed, and love added details that fit the writer's description, so I admit to be scared that what happened my fellow artists might hit me this time.

Having a 15K draft would go far in assuaging those fears.

But even if the majority is in agreement, how can it be done?

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Yeah, nothing is worse than not knowing what will happen.
I'm in agreement, I want to know that I have something to work with.

I think if the word gets spread and find more people in agreement it will go a long way.

If you want link to this post to get a wider audience.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

Hi there. Here from varioud links on the flist. :)

I think it's a good idea, both the 15K and the artist betas/drafts.

I did the first paperlegends, which was as I recall only 3 or 4 months long? Right after the match up my artist made it clear she needed time and information. I sent her my chapter outlines, character paragraphs, photos of the cast that best reflected the modern AU look of each character, music that was inspiring me as I wrote, photos of the various locations in which it would occur. I sent several updates of the fic along the way. She asked me to finish early, so I finished more than a month early, to give her time. (I'm still burnt out from the experience, LOL.)

In the last month, she stopped replying to my emails except with an occasional "so sorry, I am really busy." I figured she didn't like the fic or something since she was still posting day to day on her journal, which is fine, I can see why people might not have liked it.

In the end, I didn't see any of the art before it was posted (and it was posted late). I liked it, but it didn't include any elements of anything I had sent her and didn't have much connection to the story itself. She also took it down a while back so it's not available any more.

All that to say, more accountability and accomodation for both artist and writer may result in more satisfying collaborations on both sides.

I don't write anymore in Merlin fandom, so it won't affect my participation or not, but those are my $.02. Good luck to everyone in the next round!

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you for stopping by and adding your thoughts!

I agree, in a fest like this it's always more successful when there is accountability and accommodation. I'm sorry to hear that your experience with an artist wasn't as successful as it should have been. This is where I see having a beta for artists would really help. It's far too easy for an artist to not connect with anyone until it's time to post.
Going in, I'm always aware that it's a joint project. Because of that I'm constantly talking with my writer and showing them my in-progress photos making sure they're involved as well. But if I also had a second pair of artist eyes, my beta would be able to stop me before something 'not fly' got through.

[nympha-alba.livejournal.com]

Here via Ella and others - I think the 15k draft is a very good idea and would be helpful not only for the artists but for the writers as well.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Thank you for stopping by!

I imagine it can be very overwhelming to have to be on a writing schedule. I know when I work I like checkpoints to keep me on task, and I think a checkpoint like this would do just that for writers!

[sheswatching.livejournal.com]

This will be my first year actually writing in a BB but being a cheerleader for what ended up being quite a few people last year, I've seen both sides of the story.

I think a 15k minimum when matching is done is a good start, since a full draft might require a complete timeline rework and it seems a bit too late to do that this year.

I also think that 15 gives artists and writers a chance to be more collaborative, especially if outlines for the rest of the story are mandatory, where artists might contribute a bit more to the story itself, but that's not how it always works. :P

But it would probably be advisable for anyone who wants a story that includes manips and graphics like articles etc for throughout the story, the collab aspect would be very helpful. But I don't want either artists or writers to feel too rushed, so...y'know.

15k minimum is reasonable, with a full outline. I'd even probably volunteer to actually help the_muppet check, because I want this to be successful.

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

Yes, you brought up a very good point. Every writer/artist team works differently. Some go full out collaboration, while other times it's almost like solo ventures, and then there is everyone who falls in-between. Though I think having at least the 15K you can give a fair advantage to both the writers and artists no matter which way they work.
Thank you for stopping by and leaving your opinion!

[gfeather.livejournal.com]

As a writer, I find firmer deadlines an essential motivator. Just like the weekly word count check ins we have at paperpushers, except with a firm number expected. I really don't think it's too much to ask for the great work the artists do. I know not everyone works with a super detailed outline and follows a super rigid schedule. I know I tend to have bursts of super productivity and lulls where things 'just won't write dammit!' but I don't think it's in any way unreasonable to expect 15k to be finished before getting matched with an artist.

Also, as someone who wrote over 100k last time... I don't think it's unreasonable for a massively longer fic to be expected to have 50% of the estimated final word count or close to it. I don't know if other massive fic writers would agree with me, but 15k of a fic that's estimated at over 80k isn't very fair to the artist either. Then again, I may have really overwhelmed my artist by sending 50k+ of fic to her right out of the gate... um... oops on that reni...

Anyway... I'm agreeing with, well just about everyone here it seems, that having a concrete, 'you must have at least this submitted' rough draft commitment from writers before they get an artist seems more than fair to me. It doesn't stop people from writing as Cat 2 or prevent writers from seeking out an artist on their own if they so choose. It just makes sure that artists have more fic to work with, which makes for better art :)

[reni-m.livejournal.com]

I can see how an epicly long BB writers would appreciate a more rigid schedule!
And btw, I thank you for having so much of your story to give me! Especially since I was able to give you art for various scenes throughout the story.

Thank you for stopping by and leaving your thoughts!